Joy Division Central
Sign up Latest Topics
 
Joy Division Central > Categories > Joy Division collectors items > Help concerning first pressings.
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 9      1   2   3   4   Next   »
Sebastian

Inside the line
Registered:
Posts: 7
Posted Reply with quote  #1 
Hi.
Could use some help concerning the first pressings of Unknown Pleasures And Closer. I got the oppurtunity of purchasing these which, the seller, confirms are first uk pressings. However after mailing contact with the seller i got some information which confuses me.
The Unknown Pleasures Lp has got a textured sleeve with the Garrod & Lofthouse credit on the back, the grooves are "This is the way" and "step". There is an "a porky prime cut" groove on each side wich makes me worried, were these on the first pressings? I Thought these were only on some of the ones with "smooth cover"?
The corners on the inner sleeve are NOT ROUNDED.

The Closer Lp has got the "old blue?" groove, its got a textured sleeve and inner as well as a garrod & lofthouse credit but NO ROUNDED CORNERS.

I thought only the first pressing of Closer had a textured sleeve & inner...

If someone closely familiar with the first pressings could help me out it would be greatly appreciated!
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #2 
If it helps, the first run of Unknown Pleasures was pressed by Island Record's pressing plant and you can tell this because there is a thin ridge all around the edge of the label. Though I can't be sure they didn't get a re-press also using Island.

To be honest, not many can actually tell a first pressing for certain because there are many slight variations, particularly in the type of texture on the sleeve. It seems that slight variations would have been introduced with each extra pressing, the corners would change, the texture alters if they can't get the exact card again, and eventually it would need a re-cut when the plates have worn.

The plates cut at Porky's in Shaftsbury Avenue may well have been used on a few pressing runs so this alone doesn't really give the game away.
Sebastian

Inside the line
Registered:
Posts: 7
Posted Reply with quote  #3 
So its obviously easier to tell an original first pressing of Closer from reissues, than to do the same with Unknown Pleasures, since it apparently had several "editions" within the first pressing(s)?
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Closer probably had a few subtle variations too.
darren

Avatar / Picture

The Eternal
Registered:
Posts: 1,039
Posted Reply with quote  #5 
the original pressing of UP was 10,000 copies with textured sleeve and reddish vinyl. im not sure about CLOSER as the ltd run of red vinyls appear to be housed in at least 2 diff sleeves. both are coarse card with the G & L stamp. one has rounded corners on the inner sleeve, & the other one with square corners.
so i guess the trick is to hold it up to the light, if the vinyls black then its not a first edition...


__________________
am i going to be dead for longer than before i was alive ?
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #6 
After seeing many pressings of UP, Closer, Atmosphere etc including some that I know are genuine first pressings, plus test pressings of each of them also, I can say that I believe the red/brown transparent vinyl variation of all of these to originate from probably late 1980 (around the time of the Atmosphere 12").

I can see that people are starting to accept as fact that the first pressings of UP/Closer are the transparent ones (and this is touted on eBay as fact regularly), but in fact both were solid black on first run (as were the test pressings), it's only around late 1980 that the coloured ones appeared.

Also, I believe the colour vinyl pressings are entirely an accident due to the mix of vinyl used at that pressing plant at that time. It's not much of a feature if it takes roughly 20 years for anyone to even notice it!
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #7 
i've got a similiar problem...i own a UP copy which seems to be a bit odd because i've mailed so many sellers & hc collectors but no one could give me specific info.the cover is textured(g&l),the inner sleeve is cornered & out of hardpaper(-ish).the groove notations go:inside2/outside2 + fact10 ' step' &' this is the way' with a faint Rc(remote control due to the plates have being used up, i've been told) on both sides!anyone able to help my poor soul out of my misery?i lived in bliss as long as i thought i owned j.d. originals,but i got my eyes opened to the brutal reality as i was told that, i'm living a collectors naive dream...ohh ,if i could turn back time.no time to loose...thankful for any help.d. p.s.:the Rc as "remote control" doesn't make any sense to me...but "re-cut" does,i just quoted my source!hope i didn't make an arse of myself!?!
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
Candy

Leaders of Men
Registered:
Posts: 161
Posted Reply with quote  #8 
I bought both items of their first day of release and have them in front of me -
both were taken out the first boxes that came direct from Rough Trade's warehouse, in front of my very eyes.

UP 
Textured cover, Garrod & Lofthouse credit on bottom right of back cover. Inner sleeve printed on machine-coated side of white card, approx 200gsm, no cut corners. 
Runout grooves: 
A PORKY PRIME CUT   FACT - 10 - OUTSIDE 1   THIS IS THE WAY
A PORKY PRIME CUT   FACT - 10 - INSIDE 1      STEP

Closer
Cover: matt watercolour board, off white/cream. Inside cover: matt watercolour board, pure white, rounded corners with trim at top opening.
Runout grooves:
OLD BLUE?  (in different handwriting to...)  FACT 25 A1
FACT 25 B-1 (in different handwriting to how the cat. number appears on A1)

Btw, Porky's mastering studio was in Portland Place at the time, not in Shaftesbury Avenue (he moved there in the late 80s).

I'm afraid the comment about "if the vinyl's black, it's not a first edition" is wrong.
Erik

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 547
Posted Reply with quote  #9 
The below is from a current ebay auction - item number 160387325960. I have no idea if the seller's claims are correct, but it would explain why some people insist that their original Unknown Pleasures LP bought upon release in 1979 was on translucent red vinyl;

"JOY DIVISION UNKNOWN PLEASURES TRANSLUCENT SEE THROUGH RED VYNIL ORIGINAL
TOGETHER WITH THE BLACK VYNIL ORIGINAL SIMULTANEOUS RELEASE BOTH WITH
ROUNDED CORNER INNER SLEEVE + TEXTURED SLEEVE .
In 1979 this now classic LP was released with the superb Garrod and
Lofthouse textured sleeve .It was released on both black vynil and an
unusuall translucent vynil that goes a clear shade of red when held toward
the light . I have tried to capture this in the pictures but i think ive
failed . Take my word for it when held toward the faintest light it goes
from jet black to a clear red .Both were pressed in equal numbers and both
are now very difficult to locate . The one on the right is the red one .
Both these originals have the original inner sleeves with the rounded
corners , later issues have the square corners .
These original outer sleeves are much more heavily textured than later
sleeves and are actually made of a composition of Paper and cloth material
known as wragg . Later sleeves are just textured paper. "
 
Don't know if the same would apply to Closer as well, provided the information is accurate.

__________________
"I'm off to see the Bootleg Beatles as the bootleg Mark Chapman"
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Strictly speaking they can't both be the very first pressings, as far as I know (check the Rob Gretton notebooks for reference) the very first lot were done as a single batch. So for there to be two different mixes of vinyl that means they are part of two different runs.

It's all a little academic now as the translucents are clearly part of an early pressing run (1979 or even 1980?), does it matter all that much now? As a collector I find that I have to have multiple copies of UP, one is probably original though it's hard to tell.

To really know that you have a very first pressing you need to have bought it at the time. There were many extra run-offs of that album as it sold more and more, some identical to the first lot.

Also, to be fair to that seller, he really only states that they are from 1979 rather than first pressings, and that is probably true. They probably did more than one batch in 1979.
Still

New Dawn Fades
Registered:
Posts: 373
Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Part of the original agreement between Fatory and Joy Divsion was no gimmicks, no coloured vinyl. So with this in mind, I'm not sure how the original pressing  was done on coloured, unless it was a mistake or the plant not cleaning out the presser properly from a previous job!

Hard to say. Maybe Oyvind or Jan Erik know?
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #12 
I'm sure it was a mistake, I mean it wasn't even noticed until fairly recently.
Erik

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 547
Posted Reply with quote  #13 

It may well have been a mistake, but if so it's funny how often this mistake was repeated as there are similar translucent colour vinyl pressings of Transmission (7"), LWTUA (7") and Atmosphere (12"). Even the Factory USA pressings of UP, Closer and She's Lost Control (12") exist on translucent coloured vinyl.
__________________
"I'm off to see the Bootleg Beatles as the bootleg Mark Chapman"
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #14 
i got all fussy by not knowing "did i buy a first pressing or did i get ripped,is  a blue/white label 'still' (hessian!) copy real or UP with inside2/outside2 etchings(in a textured G&L cover) an original or is even my translucent version  a re-issue too???now i don't give a damn,cuz i'm happy to have 'em.the funny thing is:i still would like to know....it's just  the bug you get when you've caught the 'collector virus' & that's what makes it so 'emotional'.i love it......................thanks ian,peter,barny&morris.....eternal gratitude!
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
darren

Avatar / Picture

The Eternal
Registered:
Posts: 1,039
Posted Reply with quote  #15 
were the usa vinyls made in the usa, or over here then exported ?
the only scenario i can think of is that when they ordered/reordered 'closer', factory also put in for more stock of the others and they were basically pressed around the same time as part of a job lot.......  hence the translucents... 

__________________
am i going to be dead for longer than before i was alive ?
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #16 
so ,what's the biz???
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #17 
hard to know without seeing Factory's receipts for pressings in 1980.

Post May 1980 they did need to re-press all the main releases due to the great sudden posthumous interest in the band, so it's very likely that they were all ordered at once and restocked.
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #18 
meaning all translucents derive from one big pressing-session,to satisfy the market after ian's passing?i always presumed the notations were a clear indicator for date(year or repress) of release or am i mistaken?
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #19 
The run-out notations only tell you a partial story.

Each set of stampers could be used to press more than one run of vinyl, that is until they wear out. Even then you could make another set of stampers using the metalwork from the same cut. A re-cut isn't always necessary.

So for instance the 'OLD BLUE?' (A1/B1) Closer cut and the 'Outside'/'Inside' UP cut could well be seen on a few pressing runs before there's any need to re-cut and therefore change any notations (A2/B2 etc).

So it makes it really difficult to know for sure if you have, for instance, one of the very first 5000 or whatever they pressed up initially.
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #20 
i've been told by an avid collector (his vinyl J.D.collection ,consisting of every official & bootleg version  in colour & shape, summ's up to nearly 2000 copies,according to his account) that the 'Rc' etching stands for 'remote control'(or RE-CUT?i'm not certain),which was used when the initial plates were used up after an usage of 10k pressings...the funny thing is,that the promo of UP supposedly has these notations + outside2/inside2(with a faint'Rc') & the text.d cover but blank labels!i own a similar copy,only no blank labels & a G&L(text.)cover...where or when was this copy issued????has anyone got a clue....?
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #21 
If it helps, they would do a few test pressings of each new cut (you've got to listen to it to check it), so that white label may be one of those. There wouldn't be any need to mail it out as a promo though so not many later T/Ps will be in circulation.
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #22 
the thing is,no one can put the inside2/outside2 (with step/fact10 etc)notations with the G&L textured cover together.i've contacted other owners of this particular issue & they couldn't definitely state when they obtained their issue,which buggers me.even discog's has no mention of this issue...blimey!
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #23 
ohhh,just discovered that the red/brownish translucent UP exists with 'a porky prime cut' etchings & with 'TOWNHOUSE' stamps which should cut the 'one batch theory' out,shouldn't it?!??bloody hope so............but confusing that two 'firms' use(or have access) to the same material?!?GOD,enlighten me...or anybody else.....?
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 3,384
Posted Reply with quote  #24 
need help again,please!does any fac 2-a factory sample-bootleg or re-issue exist with the original groove notations?thanks upfront....d.                         p.s.:i'm aware of what has been stated to this topic under J.D.C.'S 7"s & compilations!just want to make sure,'cuz i got an offer....again cheers upfront...d.
__________________
.....wish I could remember exactly when and how I obtained it, but that's lost in the mists of time it seems. But I do remember I was happy to get it back then.....
-erik-
truth

As You Said
Registered:
Posts: 1,132
Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Haven't got both bootlegs but I would think that another means of spotting an original is looking for the serrated edge to the label area, that is a pressing feature that you can't replicate these days as nowhere still does it (that I know of).
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.