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PhilC

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Reply with quote  #26 

I've got one of the recent Factory Sample 'reissues' and I can confirm that they have the original groove notations but no serrated edge. The sleeve's a bit of a giveaway too as it isn't shrink wrapped!

dmxi

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Reply with quote  #27 
never gave ya a big fat 'CHEERS!' for ye answer,PhilC(& all the others)!sorry, for my delayed response & cheers again!yours truly..........................d.

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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #28 
Sorry, to start this discussion again, but i am a die hard vinyl collector of some really difficult band/genres to look for, but it shines unbelieveable to me, that no book or the internetcrowd can handle the problem to clear up the 1st UP...
...i have the german book insideOUT and it mentioned that after the 10.000 first pressings no more money was available to continue the pressing fast, therefore must be some visible signs at later ones!!!

I can suggest that some record companies will hide details or the quantities maybe because to safe taxes, whatever, but it is always really hard to get some informations about precise quantities...

I think also the translucent thing is ridiculous, as truth & Erik had great explained, but what meaned Candy of the "no cut corners"? like so many UK releases at that time, i think the rounded corners are first, but my copy has not the usual hard paper inner like on the first Gang Of Four LP, it is thin and a little bit clossy and had the trim at top opening.

I bought my copy of UP in the early 90's and it is from a collector who sold his whole JD collection and he had own all original goodies, from AIFL to SS! It had the tex. sleeve, rounded inner, and the thin ridge all around the edge (truth mentioned) but only on the outside (black label side) and no Rc on the dead wax, only:

A PORKY PRiME CUT   W2   FACT-10- OUTSIDE   I  B   --   THiS iS THE WAY

S2 / FACT 10 - INSIDE   I  A   A PORKY PRIME CUT   --    STEP

but the W2 on side A and S2/ on side B are very thin scratched and looks like it would not fit to the other etchings! And the -- are more a dot and a line.

The cover is of course textured, printed by G & L etc. and if you look inside there is brown paper/cardboard...
...for me with hundreds of old rare records some of them private pressings etc., the cover looks really original, can not descripe it - it's a feeling...

sorry for the bad english & i hope from the bottom of my heart maybe this can undeceive by a person who worked on the pressing plant those days...

...and second - please precise pressing quantities of the first run of CLOSER






oldblue

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Reply with quote  #29 
interesting topic, i think candy and truth are to be taken for accuracy because of their "point in time" .  When i started buying the JD lps i always thought i had an original until a few years later i bought another one with different groove notations...and the collecting still continues. I have numerous variations of both lps and it is very hard to be sure if you have an original or not. for example: I ve got the translucent one with matching groove notations but it has 90° corners. & on the other hand one with rounded corners but added groove notations ('w1' and 'w2', anyone?).
My 3 so called 'originals' have these variations:
 'inside 1 A'
'inside 1'
'inside 1 A W1'
all 3 have the 'APPC fact 10 step' markings

Good to see people check on their versions as to sort out all this shizzle. I ll take Candy's post as 'exact' though. (though i have a vinyl with those exact notations but in a non-texured sleeve...probably swapped by someone??)
dmxi

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Reply with quote  #30 
mine has 'A J' plus the aPPc & inside 1 A etc.!squared inner,translucent red vinyl,g&l text. cover!gotta check my trans.'closer' for hidden symbols. i also have an UP with g&l text. outer,with squared inner & inside 2/outside 2 + Rc etchings,bought in germany(uk pressing,not the metronome nor RTD issue)!

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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #31 
Thanks to all, who let this topic goes on...

The most pressings runs have the to us knowing groove notations but only the w1, w2 from oldblue or the A J form dmxi and my W2 and S2/ are important differences. This adding etchings are really not easy to read!
In my opinion if we find someone who can handle this, it would be a big step forward...
...maybe it is similar to the so called "stamper codes" which defined the pressing plate or "mother"!




truth

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Reply with quote  #32 
It's hard to explain it all but where you have feint extra markings like W1/W2/S2 etc then that usually denotes an extra set of stampers made from the same mother. So therefore it won't be a first pressing.

This page explains it a little:

http://www.crimson-ceremony.net/pr3/pressingplants/intro_vinyl.html

discotraxxx

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Reply with quote  #33 
Hi,

if you want to commit suicide, just check the text about the first pressings of NMTB...

http://www.philjens.plus.com/pistols/pistols/pistols_nmtb.htm

See You

Vince
Protovision

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Reply with quote  #34 
I won't say that because the extra etchings they are not first pressings, by a first run of 10k (or more) more mothers are possible, because it is not sure if all were pressed from a single machine...

THX to discotraxxx, so this clear up my NMTB problem, i have one with the 11 track, blank back slv. and A3/B3 matrix = first 1k

RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #35 
Yeah, big whoop, I have SPOT 001 (w/ poster & 7"), bought new at the time
Protovision

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Reply with quote  #36 
Sadly this topic is sleeping again

To spread the discussion, can everybody confirm the Discogs entries for the Transmission 7"? Okay, maybe the glossy & textured sleeve came at the same time, but my focus is on the texured one! There are three contributions:

Textured, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L
Textured, with round cut-out on reverse, straight glue flaps and purple G+L

Matrix Number (Variation 1-Side A): FAC-13 A1 Sound Clinic Graeme S-4.EG.
Matrix Number (Variation 1-Side B): FAC-13 B1 EG S-6
Matrix Number (Variation 2-Side A): FAC 13 A1 E.G. Sound Clinic Graeme S-3
Matrix Number (Variation 2-Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG S-2

and for the repress:

Textured with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L

Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A2 EG A PORKY PRIME CUT AND HOW I'LL NEVER KNOW
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG A PORKY PRIME CUT JUST WHY OR UNDERSTAND

and the 3rd:

Textured, with round cut-out on reverse, straight glue flaps and purple G+L
Textured, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L

The vinyl can either be the Graeme Durham pressing (run-out: Sound Clinic Graeme) or the George Peckham pressing (run-out: A Porky Prime Cut and etchings Side A: And How I'll Never Know and Side B: Just Why or Understand).

Matrix Number (Side A - Vari. 1): FAC 13 A1 E.G. Sound Clinic Graeme S-3
Matrix Number (Side B - Variation 1): FAC 13 B1 EG S-2
Matrix Number (Side A - Variation 2): FAC 13 A2 EG A Porky Prime Cut
Matrix Number (Side B - Variation 2): FAC 13 B1 EG A Porky Prime Cut

puhh, a lot stuff...
...but interesting is the S-2, S-3 by the Sound Clinic Graeme A1/B1 Variation! Like some UP pressings and both are from 1979 - maybe there is a connection? But the "A Porky Prime Cut" on the Variation 2 tergiversates this assumption, or not...






dmxi

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Reply with quote  #37 
i'm totally with you,proto.i can't help with the single releases(i haven't got around collecting 7 inches yet),my mind is set on UP,CLOSER & STILL originals.it's become a sort of science where finding the true 'core' seems pretty difficult.how do we entangle this to clear ,what's a first & what's not?

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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #38 
Sorry - will not stress all the crowd with this topic, but i will inform the experts here, meanwhile the price for original UP copies is going through the roof:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JOY-DIVISION-UNKNOWN-PLEASURES-EX-UK-LP-PORKYPRIME-CUT-/370472721882?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item5641e51dda

Therefore it is really important for the community to compile all the information's around, because the rising prices and to avoid bad business - i cannot believe all 10k first issues were produced from a single machine (pls. read the older comments)! 

& again my urgent personal problem to choose an 1st pressing Transmission 7"!
Discogs entry:

Published by Fractured Music.
A Factory Records Product
℗© 1979


Transmission 7" pressings usually come in the following sleeve variations:

This: Textured, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L;

Textured, with round cut-out on reverse, straight glue flaps and purple G+L;

Glossy sleeve, with round cut-out, straight glue-flaps and purple G+L.

Glossy sleeve, no cut-out, straight glue-flaps and white G+L.



WHICH one is the real deal????????? THX in advance...

truth

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Reply with quote  #39 
I don't think you'll ever get to the bottom of this to be honest, there are many variations.

I have various copies, inlcuding two variations in the way of the texture. The original texture has a recessed and a more random pattern, the other later pressing has a very fine raised pattern.

Originals:

Textured, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L
Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A1 E.G. Sound Clinic Graeme S-3
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG S-2

Textured, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L
Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A1 E.G. Sound Clinic Graeme S-2
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG S-4

Textured, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L
Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A1 E.G. Sound Clinic Graeme S-5
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG S-4


Later pressings:

Different Texture, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L;
Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A2 EG A Porky Prime Cut AND HOW I'LL NEVER KNOW
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG A Porky Prime Cut JUST WHY OR UNDERSTAND

Glossy sleeve, no cut-out, straight glue-flaps and white G+L.
Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A2 EG A Porky Prime Cut AND HOW I'LL NEVER KNOW
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG A Porky Prime Cut JUST WHY OR UNDERSTAND


I think the S-2/S-3 etc markings denote multiple stampers made from the same original cut. There is little chance of figuring out if they were done at the same time or a little later. I would think that if a big run was needed quickly they may have made a few stampers at the same time, hence the odd pairings of stamper numbers 3/2, 2/4 etc

Protovision

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Reply with quote  #40 
Thanks a lot truth - maybe there is a light on the horizon because the 7"...

I don't know how much was the pressing quantity of the first run of the Transmission 7", but i can not imagine it is a lot more than the UP (10k+), therefore is my theory of multiple stampers with slightly different matrix etchings, very similar to your
(3/2 or 2/4)  description of the 7", or not?





dmxi

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Reply with quote  #41 
nice to see this topic beeing revived.

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RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protovision
Sorry - will not stress all the crowd with this topic, but i will inform the experts here, meanwhile the price for original UP copies is going through the roof:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JOY-DIVISION-UNKNOWN-PLEASURES-EX-UK-LP-PORKYPRIME-CUT-/370472721882?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item5641e51dda

Hah, he never sold it at $169.99, price has already dropped through successive relistings to $89.99

--

Meanwhile, I just checked my "first press" (I swear! ) of UP and ... am I the only person in the world with an "S-36" in the run-off groove after the "FACT 10 - OUTSIDE   1  B"?
RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
Different Texture, with squared cut-out on reverse, rounded glue flaps and white G+L;
Matrix Number (Side A): FAC 13 A2 EG A Porky Prime Cut AND HOW I'LL NEVER KNOW
Matrix Number (Side B): FAC 13 B1 EG A Porky Prime Cut JUST WHY OR UNDERSTAND

How strange.  I bought mine as soon as it hit the States yet it's a "Later pressing"? 

I also can't find any mentions in Google of what I have in the run-off - what looks like an "LYN-9344" on Side A and "LYN-9345" on Side B (in addition to the Porky Prime Cut and lyrics etchings).  There's a chance those could be "LVN-9344"/"LVN-9345" or even "L/N-9344"/"L/N-9345" but I can't find anything ...
Erik

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Reply with quote  #44 

Quote:

I just checked my "first press" of UP and ... am I the only person in the world with an "S-36" in the run-off groove after the "FACT 10 - OUTSIDE   1  B"?


I have a copy with an "S-4"... Below are details of my original UK UP versions;

1.
FACT-10-OUTSIDE I B  THIS IS THE WAY  A PORKY PRIME CUT  
FACT 10-INSIDE I A  A PORKY PRIME CUT  X  STEP     
textured sleeve (less heavily textured), printed inner with rounded corners, translucent reddish vinyl, "Printed in GB by Garrod & Lofthouse" notice on back cover

2.
FACT-10-OUTSIDE  I  B  THIS IS THE WAY  A PORKY PRIME CUT 
FACT 10-INSIDE  I  A  A PORKY PRIME CUT  STEP     (no clearly visible "X" in side 2 matrix number)   
textured sleeve (less heavily textured), square inner, translucent reddish vinyl, "Garrod & Lofthouse" on back cover

3.
FACT-10-OUTSIDE I B  THIS IS THE WAY   A PORKY PRIME CUT   S-4  (last bit is quite faint, the "4" could be a "9"? Probably a "4" though, as that would correspond better with the "5" on side 2
FACT 10-INSIDE I A  A PORKY PRIME CUT  STEP   S-5   (last bit is quite faint)    
textured sleeve (more heavily textured) with "printed in GB by Garrod & Lofthouse" notice on back cover, card inner sleeve with rounded corners, non-transparent black vinyl 

4.
FACT 10 A2  TOWN HOUSE 
FACT 10 B2  TOWN HOUSE  MVS S9 ("MVS S9" is quite faint, "TOWN HOUSE" is stamped)  
textured sleeve (more heavily textured), printed inner sleeves with rounded corners, "Garrod & Lofthouse" on back cover, regular black vinyl 

5.
white label test pressing:
FACT 10-OUTSIDE-2 THIS IS THE WAY 
FACT 10-INSIDE-2 STEP   
plain white labels with FACT 10 hand-written on side 2 label, no printed sleeve, pressed on heavy black vinyl   

6.
FACT 10-OUTSIDE-2  THIS IS THE WAY 
FACT 10-INSIDE-2  STEP 
smooth shiny non-textured sleeve, square inner, no Garrod & Lofthouse credit on back cover, black vinyl
 


 


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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #45 
Thanks a lot for the contributions from Erik & RiotNrrrd...
...every single note move us closer to the finish, maybe we all get at the end unknown pleasures.

No. 1 and 2 (translucent) from erik's list is prevail declared as later pressing and no. 5 (town house) must be from the time of the Still releasing!
Further i think no. 5 is the test pressing (btw: great catch) of the "second" pressing, no. 6!
If more copies without alphanumeric etchings show up with the text. sleeve and round edges inner etc., i would change my mind that in my view no. 3 is the real deal - but, the many extra etchings variations (S-4/S-5) or RiotNrrrd's (S-36) and all the other (previously mentioned) additions let me pondering a lot...



truth

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
I also can't find any mentions in Google of what I have in the run-off - what looks like an "LYN-9344" on Side A and "LYN-9345" on Side B (in addition to the Porky Prime Cut and lyrics etchings).  There's a chance those could be "LVN-9344"/"LVN-9345" or even "L/N-9344"/"L/N-9345" but I can't find anything


It's LYN for Lyntone, as per the Ideal For Living release, and the UK flexidiscs, and various New Order 12"s (like Perfect Kiss for one). They would add their code as well as the Record label's to releases made with them.
RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #47 
I've just had another look at my UP and that "S-36" could well be an "S-3b" ... the "back" of the "6" is pretty much straight rather than a bit curved up and to the right as you might expect of a "6" ... so I excitedly flipped it over wondering if I'd not noticed a "S-3a" on the "Inside" ... but there's nothing! 

Mine is also a Porky Prime Cut/Printed in GB by Garrod & Lofthouse edition so I think it's pretty close to Erik's #3, except that I don't have any other copies so I can't judge whether mine qualifies as "more heavily textured" or "less heavily" ...

RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #48 
P.S. Cheers for the Lyntone info truth!
truth

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Reply with quote  #49 
And if you want to see 'porky' in action, ie. George Peckham at Porky's, then watch this:



dmxi

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Reply with quote  #50 
back to subject & regards to proto! i've got both red translucent versions of closer .the notations of the squared inner version :side 1 -'old blue?'  fact 25 A1 + I (more a faint line ,opposite in the dead wax) side 2 - fact 25 B1  (that's all)   &  from the rounded inner version :side 1 - 'old blue?' fact 25 A1 + L (the L is as faint,also opposite, as the I on the squared version).side 2 -fact 25 B1 + cl (faint & opposite in the dead wax).the squared version has a more darker red translucent vinyl than the rounded  issue!also i have 2 red translucent 12"s of atmosphere with the difference that one has a different (f) logo to the known logo .the circle around the ' f ' is incomplete with a dot on top,breaking the full circle.it seems intentional,clearly no pressing failure & it's on side A only.

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