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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #51 
Sorry, i must wake up this thread again & regards to dmxi! Because a translucent UP was sold for astonishing 355 GBP recently i got new intention to find out something and after a web search i will share my impressions with this community and hope to reanimate the discussion! hopefully i made the explanation understandable, i am not that good in English!
The above mentioned sold item was from a dealer who declares in his offer he donate rare artefact's for a JD exhibition in Macclesfield two years ago and his translucent UP is a first week copy??? I found it at popsike and i wonder how many translucent copies was sold at the last time! Most of them without specified extra matrix etchings, but two seller mentioned etchings AJ/AK and AD/AB.
Unbelievable how stubbornly the translucent issue were offered as first pressing, even though that closer and atmosphere 12" and some records from other artists that period (1980) are also pressed on that vinyl!

Furthermore i find at popsike one sold item with matches accurate my etchings (S2/W2) and the seller mentioned he bought this copy a few month after the initial release...

The Wiki entry for UP declares: The album was redistributed by Factory in its original vinyl form in July 1980, and re-issued in 1982.
We know the reissue has the non-textured sleeve and A2/B2 groove notations so we must "only" separate the '79 and '80 pressing
When the first batch was 10k and probably the second was certainly more (15-20k+), so there must be made some stamper plates, because after pressing 500-1000 records a final negative stamper (son) must replace. I read it was possible to produce 10 sons from each mother and also 10 mothers from each father, so it's possible to press 50k-100k in total, after that you must produce another father from the original master-tape. This means a new cut (porky?) and maybe a slightly different sound and probably no A1/B1. The father and the possible max. pressing quantities is negligible here, but all mother plates ought have the known groove notations + the additional etchings for each mother (this also explains the different typeface). Therefore it must exist 1-2 ('79 run) and maybe 1-4 or even more ('80 run) mothers with then probably different etchings...



RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #52 
Opinion: You are way, way overthinking this stuff. 
Protovision

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Reply with quote  #53 

               
Quote:
Opinion: You are way, way overthinking this stuff. 


Unfortunately, you've totally right
dmxi

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Reply with quote  #54 
naa, i don't think so.i'm trying to find the same answers to this 'complex' topic which only interests avid vinyl fans & collectors .i know it's boring anorak stuff & i'm not ashamed of  wearing one!keep it up P. & i'll help where i can.

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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #55 
THX to dmxi, but the barely response of the collector's division make me really sad 
RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #56 
Maybe it's just me but I don't get the "first pressing" obsession.  (Other than to make a killing on eBay, anyway.)

I bought all of my JD records as soon as they hit the States at the time - maybe that's why.  In other words, because we had to wait 6-8 weeks for things to be shipped over here back in the day, maybe that automatically meant we never got things that were "first pressings" (for example, I have a SPOTS copy of "Never Mind The Bollocks" with the big poster and the "Satellite" 7", but it has the track titles on the back - I would be surprised if (m)any of the "first pressings" with the blank backs/no track titles ever hit the States) because the "first pressings" all went to UK stores, I dunno.

I'm perfectly happy with having had mine as soon as I could possibly get it - that make sense?

Protovision

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't get the "first pressing" obsession.  (Other than to make a killing on eBay, anyway.)


...that's absolute OK for you and people have bought their stuff back then! but the younger crowd, who's obsession is to own a peace of history, had to pay meanwhile a lot of money to get this pearls - that's also OK, but paying much money of later pressings is not necessary...

the "blank back bollocks" is a total different thing, this was pressed before the regular run has started - it's more like promo! my blank back copy has a store tag from a record shop in Stockholm and probably the Pistols-staff sold it during the Scandinavian-tour!

i am buying rare records a long time and mostly and even more today (WWW) it's easy to spot the differences, but the UP is really a hard nut...
dmxi

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Reply with quote  #58 
this is very interesting information concerning vinyl/accetate authenticity :





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wabznasm

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Reply with quote  #59 
Bloody eBay sellers.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280752922138?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

He's copied the description word for word from here:

http://www.popsike.com/JOY-DIVISIONUnknown-Pleasures-Orig-UK-TRANSLUCENT-LP/280691131398.html

Looks like a nice copy but can he be trusted?

Protovision

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Reply with quote  #60 
...i get crazy, the translucent vinyl is like a pain in the a** for me! i think you can trust him to get an excellent reddish copy - but if you get a real first UP pressing - probably not...

here is a current closer item:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOY-DIVISION-original-first-edt-red-Vinyl-LP-Closer-/390353637439?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item5ae2e3d03f

maybe i would accept if the closer album in translucent vinyl would only be claims as a first pressing!
if this were planned from both factories there were for sure a lim. Ed. 5000  in "red" vinyl or something AD on the cover...
...but if this was a mistake by the plant, why to hell did that happen to UP also, one year in advance!!!
dmxi

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Reply with quote  #61 
another 2nd press with first-press attributes (UP):
http://www.ebay.de/itm/181056999532?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1650wt_1167

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dmxi

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Reply with quote  #62 
i dunno if this site is known or has been posted somewhere else here:
http://blog.factoryrecords.org/1979/06/fact-10-joy-division-unknown-pleasures.html 

...& here for posters(all factory) :
http://blog.factoryrecords.org/2012/01/posters.html


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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #63 

TOTALLY CRAZY:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOY-DIVISION-UNKNOWN-PLEASURES-RARE-FIRST-WEEK-RED-TRANSLUCENT-VINYL-UK-LP-/230951102560?pt=UK_Records&hash=item35c5c22860

dmxi

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Reply with quote  #64 
closer 'facus' - translucent brownish:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOY-DIVISION-CLOSER-TRANSLUCENT-VINYL-LP-ORIGINAL-US-PRESS-TEXTURED-COVER-/161004548840?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D6936824734824714448%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D390353637439%26



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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #65 

WOW, an US Closer pressing is as translucent as the incredible rare first UK Pressing...

...really weired

Protovision

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Reply with quote  #66 

...newly found on the web [idea]

http://blog.factoryrecords.org/1979/06/fact-10-joy-division-unknown-pleasures.html

 

 

& the people are getting crazier and crazier...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOY-DIVISION-UNKNOWN-PLEASURES-RED-TRANSLUCENT-FIRST-PRESS-A1-B1-GOTH-PUNK-/370913240974?pt=UK_Records&hash=item565c26e78e

 

ravachol

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Reply with quote  #67 
My brother bought UP here in Germany in a small town in 1980 or at least early 1981. It has the textured sleeve but not the rounded corners. BTW does someone have a picture of the Garrod & Lofthouse Mark?
I don't have it here at my workplace, but I think it has the "This is the way..." groove.It has the red translucent vinyl. Does this make sense?

Correction: now that I have it in front of me.
~ FACT 10-Inside!-A, S-23, A Porky Prime Cut, Step
~ FACT-10-Outside!-B, S-21, A Porky Prime Cut, This Is The Way

and definetely the reddish vinyl. I first didn't get this, it's not enough to hold it against a light, if I put in on top of a lightbulb maybe 6 or 7 inches away it's all red.

As mentioned in Gutz link about the first pressing:
http://blog.factoryrecords.org/1979/06/fact-10-joy-division-unknown-pleasures.html

But no mention of Garrod&Lofthouse, no round corners, textured sleeve.
It would make somehow sense that the small record shop in the small town I grew up in Germany didn't sell to many UP records back then, but in late 1980 or early 1981? And why no round corners or Garrod&Lofthouse?

Confused,
Dirk

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dmxi

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Reply with quote  #68 
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O191219/unknown-pleasures-record-sleeve-peter-saville/
http://afactoryalphabet.blogspot.de/2009/05/u-is-for-unknown-pleasures.html
http://afactoryalphabet.blogspot.de/2009/05/j-is-for-joy-division.html
http://www.cerysmaticfactory.info/fact10.php

...is all i could find but G&L designation is at the bottom right hand side.

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ravachol

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Reply with quote  #69 
Now I'm even more confused. I guess I'm blind. My cover has the Garrod&Lofthouse mark, but the inner sleeve doesn't have round corners.

http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/3414/6gyq9gkf_jpg.htm

http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/3414/c3bln8vb_jpg.htm

Dirk

P.S. How many of you are as stupid as me? My brother bought the LP, but very soon, I occupied the entire Joy Division territory. And to set a mark, I took black Gaffa-tape, wrote my name on the inner sleeve in white letters - so my brothers name did disappear and to complete my mission, I wrote a date next to it. Maybe Jesus doesn't want me to ever sell it! I wouldn't anyway.

 


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darren

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Reply with quote  #70 
i have 2 copies of closer that are both translucent. both have the g&l mark, but one has rounded corners, and the other has square corners.

also, theres some very rare(up to now) copies of Masquerade by the Skids that are black vinyl in appearance, but same again, hold it up to the light and its translucent blue. i believe theres only 2 turned up at the moment. one of each vinyl from the double pack. but separate owners.

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dmxi

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Reply with quote  #71 
interesting description:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOY-DIVISION-Unknown-Pleasures-TOWN-HOUSE-A2-matrix-UK-LP-/380738986699?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item58a5cfe2cb

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dmxi

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Reply with quote  #72 
here are the known identifiers for UP via discogs:
Comes in two vinyl variations:
Black and dark translucent red. It can only be differentiated when holding against a strong light source.

There also are two sleeve variations:
Textured sleeve with printed inner sleeve with square or rounded corners.

However, the two vinyl editions can come in either sleeve combination.

Recorded at Strawberry Studios, Stockport.
FACT 10 · A Factory Records Product.
Printed and made in Great Britain by Garrod & Lofthouse Ltd.

Barcode and Other Identifiers

  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 1): FACT 10-INSIDE!-A A PORKY PRIME CUT - STEP S-23
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 1): FACT-10-OUTSIDE!-B - THIS IS THE WAY A PORKY PRIME CUT S-2 I
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 2): FACT 10-INSIDE!-A A PORKY PRIME CUT - STEP S-20
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 2): FACT-10-OUTSIDE!-B - THIS IS THE WAY A PORKY PRIME CUT S-19
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 3): FACT10-INSIDE! A A PORKY PRIME CUT - STEP S-7
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 3): FACT-10-OUTSIDE! B - THIS IS THE WAY A PORKY PRIME CUT S-35
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 4): FACT 10-INSIDE! A A PORKY PRIME CUT - STEP
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 4): FACT-10-OUTSIDE! B - THIS IS THE WAY A PORKY PRIME CUT
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 5): FACT 10-INSIDE! A A PORKY PRIME CUT STEP S - 3
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 5): FACT-10-OUTSIDE! B THIS IS THE WAY A PORKY PRIME CUT S - 3
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 6): FACT 10-INSIDE ! A A PORKY PRIME CUT - STEP S-28
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 6): FACT-10- OUTSIDE I B - THIS IS THE WAY A PORKY PRIME CUT S-26

here for 'closer':
FACT 25 comes in two vinyl editions: Black and dark translucent red. It can only be differentiated when holding against a strong light source.
Apparently, this is due to Martin Hannett, who ordered a second master cut after he found out that 5000 records were pressed without the initial master having been approved.

There also are two sleeve variations:
A plain carton cover with glossy inner sleeve and having straight corners. Or a thick rough cardboard cover with rough inner sleeve and having rounded corners.

However, the two vinyl editions can come in either cover.

A distinction regarding the lacquer cutting (of the black vinyl) is the groove width, which is as wide as possible. For example, the United States FACTUS pressing has an A-side runout of nearly 1 1/2 inches across while it's less than 1/2" on this cutting. [This adds to the sound quality on an audiophile rig.].

Barcode and Other Identifiers

  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 1): FACT 25 A1 I
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 1): FACT 25 B-1 AA
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 2): FACT 25 A1 AT
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 2): FACT 25 B-1 BC
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 3): FACT 25 A3 RC
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 3): FACT 25 B3 RC
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 4): FACT 25 A1 1
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 4): FACT 25 B-1 2
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 5): FACT 25 A1 BG
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 5): FACT 25 B-1 BJ
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 6): FACT 25 A1 - BC
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 6): FACT 25 B-1 AU
  • Matrix / Runout (Side A - Variation 7): FACT 25 A1 I BE
  • Matrix / Runout (Side B - Variation 7): FACT 25 B-1 AW
  • Matrix / Runout (Run-out etching [By Hand] side A): OLD BLUE?


....& for 'still' :
A.
Released in limited clothbound "hessian" gatefold cover with white ribbon. The labels are blue on white. Generic inner sleeves.
Mastered at The Townhouse, Camden.
Stamper/metalwork at Gedmal Galvanics, Leicester.

Barcode and Other Identifiers

  • Matrix / Runout: FACT 40 A2 GG TOWN HOUSE THE CHICKEN WON'T STOP
  • Matrix / Runout: FACT 40 B2 GG TOWN HOUSE -< -< -< -< -< -<
  • Matrix / Runout: FACT 40 C2 GG TOWN HOUSE -< -< -< -<
  • Matrix / Runout: FACT 40 D2 GG TOWN HOUSE THE CHICKEN STOPS HERE

B.
There are five UK vinyl versions on Factory:
Initial run released in a hardbound linen cloth sleeve
Limited edition white gatefold sleeve with blue letters.
Cardboard embossed gatefold sleeve with grey labels, either with "TOWN HOUSE" mastering (this release), or without.
Reissue with a standard gatefold sleeve (records unload to the outside).

Track C6 unlisted.

Barcode and Other Identifiers

  • Matrix / Runout (Side 1 etched / stamped): FACT 40 A-1 X EG THE CHICKEN WONT STOP P2 TOWN HOUSE
  • Matrix / Runout (Side 2 etched / stamped): FACT 40 B X EG P2 -< -< -< -< -< -< TOWN HOUSE
  • Matrix / Runout (Side 3 etched / stamped): FACT 40 C1 -< -< -< -< EG TOWN HOUSE
  • Matrix / Runout (Side 4 etched / stamped): FACT 40 D1 EG THE CHICKEN STOPS HERE TOWN HOUSE











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truth

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Reply with quote  #73 
There are multiple sleeve variations for UP and Closer, not two. Each time it was pressed the card texturing seemed to change slightly, also both were released with no texturing later on.

Also...

Quote:
FACT 25 comes in two vinyl editions: Black and dark translucent red. It can only be differentiated when holding against a strong light source.
Apparently, this is due to Martin Hannett, who ordered a second master cut after he found out that 5000 records were pressed without the initial master having been approved.


...this is rubbish. The translucency variation between pressings is an entirely different thing to the record being re-cut (for whatever reason). ie. The same cut appears in both black or red or brown translucent pressings. If there is a rejected cut in existence, then it hasn't been put into circulation at all.
dmxi

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Reply with quote  #74 
here we (or just 'I') go again....found this interesting blog-discussion:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/joy-division-unknown-pleasures-matrix-numbers-for-a-1st-vinyl-uk-pressing.111680/

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Protovision

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Reply with quote  #75 

thanks a lot DMXI for the link! my eyes are burning after i read all the entries! happy to see so many people collect such a lot data!

meanwhile the 'red' one question is antiquated [rofl] ...

...but to seperate the '79 and '80 run will be really hard, if not a insider give us a final note!

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