Joy Division Central
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Dawn

Avatar / Picture

From Safety To Where
Registered:
Posts: 534
Reply with quote  #1 
Just ordered the book from Amazon, anyone here read it? Opinions?

Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #2 
I read it. It was quite disgusting, and hard to get through in some places. It is an illustration of the horrific depictions of life in the ghettos and camps during the Shoah, akin to Elie Wiesel's "Night", but through the eyes of a teen aged girl forced to live in the rape quarters (Joy Division). It not only depicts the inhumane treatment and deep disgust the camp leaders/soldiers had for the Jews in the camps, but how fellow Jews could be just as dangerous when life means nothing and survival is as fragile and fleeting as luck in the backwards system of the ghettos/camps. Despite the fact that it is so painful and bleak I value its existence and find it an important book. Do remember that it is a translation, so the names are very very Yiddish/Hebrew (people not familiar with the dominate sounds of those languages may have a bit of trouble, but don't let that take you out of the story), and the pace reflects that, as well as some repetitive adjective use.
Dawn

Avatar / Picture

From Safety To Where
Registered:
Posts: 534
Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks for that rather in-depth review Lilac bath x
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #4 
No problem! Let me know what you think of it when you're done. I'm always up for a book chat [smile]
PhilC

I Remember Nothing
Registered:
Posts: 494
Reply with quote  #5 
I found it to be a hard read, not necessarily in terms of the content but, as Lilac-bath points out, because it's a translation.

Like many things associated with Joy Division (e.g. Stroszek), it's not exactly a bundle of laughs...
SB

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 1,621
Reply with quote  #6 
Never read it, time to correct that.



__________________
The revolution is just a t shirt away
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #7 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dolls
__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
Never read it, time to correct that.



Yes! You should! If you are up for the challenge that is.
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
Never read it, time to correct that.


it maybe hard but still it's a book of fiction.germans did not use jewish women for prostitution,only inmates had 'controlled' sex with inmates as they were issued with 'KZ-currency' for  labor.i know it seems preposterous but those are the facts.
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395013
& see 'spielbergs' holocaust site where inmates state they were issued currency in the camps for movies,books,etc......& prostitutes.
i know this can cause a stirr but the fact remains that 'house of dolls' is fiction which doesn't contradict the 'holocaust' as such
just that the jewish 'joy division' for 'Sick-Sadist' nazis is not factual.

__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmxi
Quote:
Originally Posted by SB
Never read it, time to correct that.


it maybe hard but still it's a book of fiction.germans did not use jewish women for prostitution,only inmates had 'controlled' sex with inmates as they were issued with 'KZ-currency' for  labor.i know it seems preposterous but those are the facts.
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395013
& see 'spielbergs' holocaust site where inmates state they were issued currency in the camps for movies,books,etc......& prostitutes.
i know this can cause a stirr but the fact remains that 'house of dolls' is fiction which doesn't contradict the 'holocaust' as such
just that the jewish 'joy division' for 'Sick-Sadist' nazis is not factual.


Of course this is fiction, but rape was a reality for Jewish women during the holocaust from both Germans and their Russian liberators. Of course presented the way it is in the book there is no evidence for actual German used brothels and House of Dolls seems to be more Holocaust pulp than anything...Which is kind of telling as it is the authors most famous work outside of Israel. Either way its still pretty sad.
Dawn

Avatar / Picture

From Safety To Where
Registered:
Posts: 534
Reply with quote  #11 
It's good you know so much on the subject Lilac bath, I still haven't had my order delivered, but big thanks to everyone who's put in their opinion.  Mae pawb sydd yn hoffi Joy Division yn pobol da da iawn yn llygad fi, a dyna'r gwir [smile]
FracturedMusic

Gutz
Registered:
Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #12 
I found a paperback copy years ago. I immediately turned to the section that Ian quoted in his lyrics, but did not read the entire book. The subject matter is very dark and depressing.

The book The Rape of Nanking offers an exhaustively fact-based retelling of what the Japanese troops did to prisoners in Asia, but again, it was too grim and I turned away. Nonetheless, as stated above, it's important that books like these exist, as they serve as reminders, and warnings.
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #13 
" but rape was a reality for Jewish women during the holocaust from both Germans and their Russian liberators"

i'm sorry to correct you (again) but it was forbidden for 'germans' to have any intercourse with 'non-arians',so rape was as judicial chargeable as was sexual consent/marriage(guess what they feared more?).the russian 'liberators' had a knack for german women(my gran knew & she was mistaken for being jewish due to complexion,which saved her from being raped by russian 'liberators'!) out of revenge & there's no known source that states that they mis-used KZ-niks.again,those are the facts but i understand where that 'folklore' derives from.do your own research & you'll find out what i mean.history was bad enough in itself & does not need that extra sadistic note which smears it to pulp!anyone,really interested should look a bit deeper besides a 'really shocking story' with a proven fallacy!



__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmxi
" but rape was a reality for Jewish women during the holocaust from both Germans and their Russian liberators"

i'm sorry to correct you (again) but it was forbidden for 'germans' to have any intercourse with 'non-arians',so rape was as judicial chargeable as was sexual consent/marriage(guess what they feared more?).the russian 'liberators' had a knack for german women(my gran knew & she was mistaken for being jewish due to complexion,which saved her from being raped by russian 'liberators'!) out of revenge & there's no known source that states that they mis-used KZ-niks.again,those are the facts but i understand where that 'folklore' derives from.do your own research & you'll find out what i mean.history was bad enough in itself & does not need that extra sadistic note which smears it to pulp!anyone,really interested should look a bit deeper besides a 'really shocking story' with a proven fallacy!



It was forbidden by their supervisors and it was officially forbidden by the regime, yes, but not every soldier obeys orders, especially when it is so easy to get away with breaking rules. It would be very naive to believe that in an army of thousands, not one of them disobeyed that rule, especially when dehumanization was already the name of the game. And there are many many personal accounts by Jewish women and sources that support that. I mean, Helene Sinnreich paper is just an easy google search away. Why do you air quote the word folklore? What are you actually suggesting? I am simply repeating what I have learned through my own research. I don't understand why you would get so up in arms about painting the holocaust in an even worse light (as if anyone ever could). Either way this is entirely off topic and honestly we really don't need to debate points about the holocaust in this thread.
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn
It's good you know so much on the subject Lilac bath, I still haven't had my order delivered, but big thanks to everyone who's put in their opinion.  Mae pawb sydd yn hoffi Joy Division yn pobol da da iawn yn llygad fi, a dyna'r gwir [smile]


No problem! When I ordered mine it also took a while to get to me. Let me know what you think when you start reading it!
Elisium

Avatar / Picture

No Love Lost
Registered:
Posts: 141
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn
Just ordered the book from Amazon, anyone here read it? Opinions?



Dawn

I read this book as a teenager in the late 1970's, before I discovered Joy Division, and at a time when there was an unquenchable market for anything remotely 'Nazi' for the paperback bookshelves.  This book along with the Sven Hassel and Leo Kessler novels were staple choice for teenagers such as myself.

In the time since then, I have read exhaustively of the National Socialist period of German history, including the Holocaust in detail , and while I certainly do not claim to be an expert, I do have a sound knowledge base on the subject.

'House of Dolls' in it's own right is a harrowing read, and in my opinion is bleaker than Orwell and as stark and oppresive as any Kafka work.  However, as alluded to already, the subject matter is in fact written as a novel, and not as a work of auditable fact.  That said, it is a worthwhile read for what it is, and rape in any language or background is a disgusting act, it is just that in this case it is written of in a context which does not bear direct historical fact.  

In my opinion, anyone who wants to read of the true horrors of the KZ system should read 'Death Dealer - The Memoirs of the SS-Kommandant at Auschwitz' - by Rudolf Hoss.  Written as he waited execution, he divulged much more than any of the defendants at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial, and is simply chilling to read.

I nconclusion, I would recommend that you read 'House of Dolls' as a novel, and 'Death Dealer' as a historical record.  I hope this might be of some use.






Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #17 
Elisium: Perfect comment! Yes it is easy to see House of Dolls as a fiction right away, simply based on the structure of the narration alone, let alone the basic facts. I didn't realize that this sort of pulp was so popular at one point, but it does make sense, much in the same way penny novels about cowboys and Indians were so popular during westward expansion in the U.S. I also haven't read Death Dealer, but since you've recommended it I'll have to take a look. 
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #18 
??!!??
off topic would be if we were to start reviewing harry potter!topic is house of dolls with all it's complications,existent or not.it seems my tone was a little too direct as you revise your statement towards elisium.sorry if you've felt offended,not my intention.
saying a 'couple' soldiers didn't obey their orders & painting all soldiers as rapists is like condemning all israelis as terrorists just because a few 'settlers' burnt down a palestinian house with kids.

__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #19 
If you took my statement as painting all solders as rapists, that was certainly not my intention. I simply stated rape was a reality then. I never quantified anything, which is probably why the misinterpretation happened. I will be more careful the quantify next time so that this kind of misunderstanding doesn't happen again. As far as revising my statement, I was quick to agree with you that it was fiction, and stated no where that I thought the book as not a work of fiction. I simply find value in it.
But anyway, all misunderstandings aside, no harm done [smile]
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #20 
totally agree.....sorry for any mis-understanding.i'm relieved that no feelings were hurt as i,after re-reading my comments,had a bad feeling of being slightly insensitive & using a rude tone.your 'cool' reply helped banishing my guilty consciousness [wink]--)     best wishes/dmxi
__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
Lilac_bath

Avatar / Picture

At a Later date
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmxi
totally agree.....sorry for any mis-understanding.i'm relieved that no feelings were hurt as i,after re-reading my comments,had a bad feeling of being slightly insensitive & using a rude tone.your 'cool' reply helped banishing my guilty consciousness [wink]--)     best wishes/dmxi

<3 <3 [smile] Its harder to convey the tone one really intends on the internet because the person that is being spoken to can't see all the other indicators like body language and voice inflection, and I totally get that. I'm really happy that its all cleared up!
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #22 
me too....looking forward to future debate[wink]
__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
dmxi

Avatar / Picture

In a Lonely Place
Registered:
Posts: 2,704
Reply with quote  #23 
speaking of the 'devil':
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOUSE-OF-DOLLS-BY-KA-TZETNIK-135633-PAPERBACK-BOOK-JOY-DIVISION-/131572895865?hash=item1ea25b1079
....with a 'nice teaser':
HOUSE-OF-DOLLS-BY-KA-TZETNIK-135633-PAPERBACK-BOOK-JOY-DIVISION

__________________
"has amnesia ever helped?"-"yes,when the past became a burden...too much to bare!"
Dawn

Avatar / Picture

From Safety To Where
Registered:
Posts: 534
Reply with quote  #24 
I never got the book delivered, oh well [frown]
Elisium

Avatar / Picture

No Love Lost
Registered:
Posts: 141
Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn
I never got the book delivered, oh well [frown]


Dawn

I do hope that you manage to have your money refunded.  I have just looked on Amazon(UK) and the cheapest I could see was a hardback edition (minus dust jacket) for £15.  Some of the prices quoted for paperback examples are ridiculous.

Anyway, as I said earlier in this thread, there are many factual books out there relating to the holocaust which in my opinion put 'House of Dolls' in the shadows.

Happy to help if you do wish to seek further.

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.