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porfirio

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Insight
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Reply with quote  #26 
I think Crowley in his own peculiar way was a genius: in the sense that he managed to live his long life without working and surrounded by beautiful chicks of all kinds, selling that crap of second hand "magik" to naive souls - I dont think he, being an intelligent man, believed in the rubbish he preached... no surprise that fake "intellectuals" like Genesis P Orridge (Psychic Tv) or Tibet (Current 93) picked up some of this "ideas" and sold them to the industrial-neo folk ignorant crowd (and they think they are soo alternative! urghhh) - Crowley's Mass maybe good for Ozzy, Jimmy Page or Marylin Manson... Ian Curtis was so musc above, superior, to all this "satanic", occultistic claptraps
imkc1

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Reply with quote  #27 
Martin Hannett is quoted in "Torn Apart" as claiming that "Closer" was "his most 'mystical' and 'cabalistic' recording."

But I do note "Torn Apart" is full of similar uh, "woo-woo" words from the beginning.

Authors can choose a lot of words to describe things. Is there a deeper meaning to the words they choose, or are the words they don't choose to use of more significance. Who was the real author of "Closer," since music like film, is a collaborative art.

Hand in your 5 page paper by Monday lol.

Seriously, I'm just throwing it out there as info the Hannett quote.
imkc1

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatTeasdale
IMCK1 - Would you really say Throbbing Gristle were interested in the occult ? I personally just consider them more interested in the extremes of life  ..... 

I could be wrong but i cant think of too many direct occult references in TG tracks - where as I recall alot more imagery / references etc by GPO during his time in Psychic TV .... and in hindsight, I consider GPO a charlatan in the same vein as Crowley .... and certainly no 'master media manipulator' etc. 

Maybe Ian just liked the 'extremity' of TG .... or maybe the DIY / Anti rock star approach .... or maybe just the 'music'  ??

Regarding Ian being easy to hypnotise, was that just due to being Ian's state of mind generally or the medication he was on ? 

Ref this topic as a whole .... the following quote possibly sums things up :


“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”


Currently having unlimited access to WiFi I forced myself to listen to "D.O.A." by Throbbing Gristle. Well. As much of it as I felt safe to expose myself to, that is. Because at points, yes, based on my experience, there is occult crap on that album-the nasty stuff that really fcks a person up. It's in the sounds .

Yes, I can imagine that Ian, with his finely tuned ear for sounds, and apparently too his finely tuned appreciation for the rare, strange, wonderous, and awesome (in the original sense of the word) found the extremity of TG quite appealing. I imagine he also appreciated the word play.

I myself appreciate the *theory* of what all COUM and TG were about but cannot now nor could not then dig the reality of the manifestation of said theory, which is vile.
PatTeasdale

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Reply with quote  #29 
'DOA' sounds pretty tame to me now ..... and i dont hear the 'occult', but each to their own.

Try listening to WHiTEHOUSE .... 'Great White Death' or 'Right to Kill'  ...and see how you get on lol
imkc1

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Reply with quote  #30 
Hey right now I'm listening to a verrrrrry loud tv being randomly channel changed and those might sound grrrreat who knows lol
PatTeasdale

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Reply with quote  #31 
Sounds like you are listening to WHiTEHOUSE then [smile]
FracturedMusic

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Reply with quote  #32 
Crowley's writing is very dense. It takes a lot of study to grasp the traditions and concepts he is synthesizing.

I've long wondered how much of the work Ian read, but I expect it was a real influence. Debbie said in her book that he was consuming a lot of dark material near the end, and Crowley's writing would have attracted him with its transgressive, anti-establishment messaging. His friend Genesis P. Orridge is well versed in Crowley's work, and probably served a conduit.

Variations of the phrase "listen to the silence" occur elsewhere in AC's literature, and he went through a period of painting what he called "Dead Souls." Until we know conclusively that the Gogol novel inspired the song title, it's possible that Crowley's art was the actual inspiration.
imkc1

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Reply with quote  #33 
This may be related or not-idly scanning a local notice board today and was intrigued by a notice for "Transmission Meditation." It seems to be an old practice dressed up yet again for the 21st century. Just wondering if it was something Ian came in er, contact with or was aware of. If you've not heard of it here's a link
share-international.org

And the following is not occult but I also scanned thru Christopher Knowles book today (The Secret History of Rock and Roll) and he has Ian in the Orpheus chapter which I don't think is quite right assessment but to each their own....
imkc1

Insight
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Reply with quote  #34 
The Chris Knowles book was back in circulation today so I checked it out to me :-)
Yes he's got it all wrong.
Reads like he skimmed also-one phrase in particular particularly stood out because It's All Over The Internet.

It seems to me Knowles made his assignment without taking into adequate account the various and varied musical influences of Ian-for examples, the "New Korybantes" (to use Knowles classifications) such as The Who, "Mithraic Rock" such as The Stooges and Sex Pistols , and "The New Plutonians" like The Velvet Underground, Alice Cooper, Public Image Ltd, Throbbing Gristle, Killing Joke. Throw in David Bowie, the epitome of "The New Galloi" and Annik's fav Isis archetype Siouxsie Sioux, and I don't see how one could possibly limit Ian to an Orpheus archetype- being basically devolved down to "one big pity party." Excusssssse me but I think Ian's lyrics, not to mention the music of Joy Division (hello!), went way far and beyond that, encompassing many many different archetypes and stylistic genres.

Knowles also failed to take into account the "Hermetic " influence of Martin Hannett, grand wizard of UP and Closer, which Hannett termed "their most Kabbalistic album yet."

So. There ya go. Ian Curtis, possibly the real god of rock, encompassing all categories and classifications, and Joy Division, both mother and father to all music which came after. Whew!

Should Joy Division be a religion? Quite possibly, quite possibly......
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