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ianshad

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Reply with quote  #1 
The clip is clearly Gang of Four but it is titled Joy Division.



Adds a bit of weight to the rumour that VPRO recorded Joy Division for tv.

TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #2 
Let go the weight. There is no VPRO recording of Joy Division. There is no reason why anything like that would have remained unaired for some 35 years. If it would exist, it has probably gone lost or may have even been erased. But there has never been anyone giving any substance to this "rumour".

In case anyone would counterargue: "Why Gang of Four and not Joy Division?" I can point out that Gang of Four recorded their "Entertainment!" LP in the Netherlands, so it's likely that someone involved with that project (a sound engineer for instance) brought it under attention of some people at the broadcasting station. What also helped was the fact that Gang of Four wrote songs about society and politics in a manner that suited well the orientation of this alternative left-field station.
350125

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Reply with quote  #3 
I shouldn't be too hasty in dismissing this one out of hand. Ya never know what's lurking under someone's floorboards. Over the last few years all manner of footage has surfaced we thought was lost or didn't even know existed - The Beatles in full colour playing the Floral Hall in 1961 (admittedly short & silent, which is why I like it), The Who ripping through a very sweaty set at the Railway Hotel in 1965, Sex Pistols at Penzance Winter Gardens in 1977, Joy Division themselves at Plan K, plus performing 'She's Lost Control' for GTV's 'What's On'....not to mention the numerous BBC TV shows those non-cultural buffoons wiped (one of the most shocking examples being a whole series of 'Steptoe & Son' erased to make way for late-night snooker), copies of which later turned up in private collections, in the archives of foreign TV stations, even found by accident tacked onto the end of well-documented videotapes nobody in the BBC records department had bothered to watch properly. JD on VPRO....well, we can but live in hope. If Dutch television archivists were as slack as their British counterparts we may well be in for a pleasant surprise one day.
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Komackino
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Reply with quote  #4 
Hasn't the VPRO material surfaced, they use the Eindhoven footage don't they?

Remind me what's the theory about this?
350125

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Reply with quote  #5 
As I understand it the story was JD's show at Groningen Vera was filmed and later broadcast on VPRO - I first heard that one back in the 1980s. Then someone told me it was actually a segment of their first Plan K gig in 1979 that was transmitted, naturally enough on Belgian television; Ian Curtis did mention in an interview with Alan Hempsall JD did a TV show there with Cabaret Voltaire. My own theory - and only a theory, mind - is that one or the other actually happened and the stories have become entangled over the years. Stone me, we've seen that often enough with this band. Course, would love to be proved wrong....
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TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #6 
Joy Division filmed at club Vera in 1980? With pro cameras set up in multiple angles and filming a set of an unknown band? I find that extremely hard to believe. I have never in my entire life seen one second of that rumoured footage. Were it in existence, it would for sure have been re-broadcast on several occassions, just like how it happened with the Paradiso FM broadcast. It also would have been bootlegged to death. But, yes, that's just what I'm saying.
I've been a big Dutch fan since 1988 and I used to correspond a lot with fellow collectors back then (and oh, those horrible 5th gen tape copies, you wouldn't believe how BAD they sounded, and yet...). I also used to go to record fairs, hoping to catch a glimpse of those fabled bootleg LP's, or even new sensations on bootleg CD. And never did I see or hear about a Vera video, so what to make of that?

On the other hand, I've lived in Leeds for 6 months in 1993 and had some great encounters with the foljs from Desperate Dan's and Nail Records. I must have asked them about JD regulary. I recall the guy from Nail Records talked of someone he knew who owned unpublished material, possibly even video. This is long ago now. It may have concerned the Plan K footage I think. That's the only rumour that's proven to be true.
lee

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Reply with quote  #7 
I met up with Wally van Middendorp in London tonight. Whenever we meet I'm shy of talking about THE PAST because I feel that loads of other people may want to do the same thing - but because of all the conjecture I decided to put a couple of questions to him.

The bit on the concerts page about the Paradiso that says "the local support didn't want to play" was probably Minny Pops (unless a subsequent band turned the gig down). Minny Pops were offered the Paradiso support but turned it down as they had played Amsterdam a couple of mths before. It has been muted that Wally was responsible for the sound recording - he put that rumour firmly to rest - adding he doesn't even think he was in the building.

The gigs at The Hague and Eindhoven were the only gigs that Minny Pops supported Joy Division on that particular tour.

I asked if the Paradiso gig was filmed - again - "No". The only Joy Division set filmed was Eindhoven.

I then asked if the whole Eindhoven set was filmed - again "No". He backs up the explanation on the concert page - as the film was filmed in Super 8 - the reels (or cartridges) were short - so basically all you see on HATYM is all there is.

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LittleBoy

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Reply with quote  #8 
It would be rash to dismiss the possibility of a proper recording made of JD's gig at Vera off hand, because the club indeed had all the necessary facilities (the as yet uncirculated video of NO's performance at Hurrah's later in the same year (!) was made in similar circumstances).

Having said that, a trawl through the online Dutch TV archives @ http://zoeken.beeldengeluid.nl/internet/index.aspx indicates that the Dutch actively licensed the BBC & Granada clips from 1979. We also know that at least on one occasion  the Eindhoven  footage was showed on Dutch TV. No trace of Vera footage, alas.
TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBoy
It would be rash to dismiss the possibility of a proper recording made of JD's gig at Vera off hand, because the club indeed had all the necessary facilities (the as yet uncirculated video of NO's performance at Hurrah's later in the same year (!) was made in similar circumstances). No trace of Vera footage, alas.


I wouldn't speak of "dismissing the possibility", but rather "debunking the myth".
If club Vera had any filming facilities, then one should first know at which point in time, before any assumptions can be made. Is there any footage of bands at this club prior to 1980? Were there any complete gigs captured on film? Is there any evidence of this, maybe with any snippets from, like, youtube?
As long as none of these questions can be confirmed, the comparison with New Order footage from Hurrah's is inadequate. There's pro filmed footage from a Simple Minds gig at Hurrah's in 1979, so the venue was technically advanced early on. But Hurrah's was in New York. Vera, by contrast, was a small club, in a small town, in a small country.
350125

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Reply with quote  #10 
I did emphasize it was only a theory. TJ Davidson: Who said anything about 'multiangles' or 'pro cameras'? If Dutch TV was prepared to show dog-rough clips from Eindhoven then Groningen certainly need not have been a professional recording with full film crew. 

Regarding JD being 'an unknown band', well, that may be true of the time yet fragments from Eindhoven were broadcast as early as February 1980 and, as LittleBoy points out, 'Gotterdammerung 2000' happily aired segments from 'Something Else' in the early 1980s when JD were still very much an underground act in Europe - as late as 1987 I found myself chatting to folk at New Order gigs who had never heard of Joy Division. So there's no reason to disbelieve a television station in the Netherlands once aired footage of them playing an obscure venue in Groningen.

As for 'debunking the myth', well, until a couple of months ago we had no idea that Joy Division played the Good Mood as early as 1978, and there was no evidence beyond a dodgy poster to suggest they trod the boards of Huddersfield's Coach House; indeed, I was assured by several people the gig never even took place. Yet a little research soon proved beyond a doubt JD played both venues. I'm aware the Groningen story has already been investigated by others here but maybe the time has come for a bit fresh Nosey Parkering.

Never say never where this band are concerned....

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TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #11 
Okay then. I just wrote the manager of Vera. Let's see what he says. Not too much I reckon.
LittleBoy

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Reply with quote  #12 
Good idea.

I don't want to press my point any further, but if Gang of Four was filmed there in (February?) 1980, how can you categorically rule out the chance (however slim) that the same happened with Joy Division a month earlier?
TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #13 
I don't know what you mean with 'there', but the programme of which the Gang of Four bit comes from is from Neon TV. Neon TV, as I have understood was focused on the city of Rotterdam. In the summer of 1980 Gang of Four played in Rotterdam for an event called Ponton 010. During this event there were more gigs by other bands as well, like The Slits. I think some bands were filmed a bit because they were contributors to the event, but I doubt that complete gigs were captured.
It had nothing to do with the city of Groningen or any of its venues.
TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #14 
More myth debunking: Peter Weening from club Vera just wrote me back about the suggestion of live footage recorded in 1980. He said that the Vera Video Group was initiated around 1985/1986.
I guess that can be considered as the definitive answer.
He also wrote that in the current cloakroom of the club there's a giant wallprint of a bandphoto. Whether it is a picture taken at the gig that once took place I can not say. I'll leave the answer to someone who visits the venue more frequently.
TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #15 
Here's an episode of the programme "Neon" on Dutch TV (VPRO), I think the last or second to last one. It features two cuts from JD in Eindhoven, namely NDF and Auto.
Contrary to what some believe, this was not broadcasted as early as February '80, since this episode of Neon features images of the big riots in Amsterdam during the coronation of princess Beatrix. This took place on April 30th, so one may assume it was broadcasted sometime in May.
It starts with a bit of Stiff Little Fingers, shortly followed by JD, which is then followed by some really bad punk bands. The style of the programme was deliberately done in an underground sort of way, complete with shakey handheld super-8 camera work.
Unfortunately there are no subs in English, but I'm certain that the topic during the JD tracks leaves little to one's imagination.
Kudos to anyone who manages to watch the entire Neon. Some of it is profoundly cheesy, you are warned!

truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #16 
Interesting, they seem to have the two tracks slowed down to near the correct pitch/speed. Also, it begs the question, was it shown with the permission of the person who shot the footage? His rather confrontational attitude towards JD/Factory and the 'exploitation' (as he sees it) of his film is well known.
TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #17 
Personally, I think that the one who filmed the Eindhoven gig sent the material to the programme "Neon", or also known as "Neon Code". At the end of each episode there would be a call-up to viewers to "submit their code". An invitation to send them their self-made super-8 film about what they thought was interesting enough to be used for the programme. Therefore I believe there was no 'exploitation'. He posted it, because he thought it was interesting enough to be shown.
truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #18 
From an interview with the filmer:

"A: I wasn’t a fan of Joy Division, so i didn’t care much about them. But I did film it well. I was part of a legendary dutch punk tv-program, Neon."

http://www.dickeldemasiado.com/?page_id=749
imkc1

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Reply with quote  #19 
Okay I watched as much as I could. I want extra mega bonus points for sitting thru gratuitous pseudo porn :-P
The JD footage whilst welcome is nothing we haven't seen before-Ian in some of the worst lighting concept ever with a relatively well lit Peter in back.
If there's more JD after the NDF/Autosuggestion snippets, inexplicably meshed with cheerleader "thoughts" and pseudo porn, do tell and I'll *try* to watch more.
dmxi

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Reply with quote  #20 
slightly off-topic....both apollo nights were filmed(by boon),bits were used for h.a.t.y.m,where's the rest?plan k is another....don't understand the denial towards us,the so-called 'fans'?
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TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #21 
I find myself rather seldom with a desire to watch or hear any Apollo material, when there's far superior stuff around. People can say what they want about the guy, but I'm very happy that the Effenaar gig was recorded by him, and not by Richard Boon.
lee

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Reply with quote  #22 
"Kudos to anyone who manages to watch the entire Neon."

My name is Lee and I claim my kudos!

"If there's more JD after the NDF/Autosuggestion snippets, inexplicably meshed with cheerleader "thoughts" and pseudo porn, do tell and I'll *try* to watch more."

Don't worry imkc1 - there isn't. There's some mildly interesting footage of a band called Crime playing a gig inside San Quentin - one prisoner proudly shows his swastika tattoo to the camera (yes I know - sheesh) - the last clips of the Amsterdam riots are similarly interesting but brief. Cheesy footage - and the bands aired after Joy Division brings a Vic Godard quote to mind - "Anyone can do it - trouble is a lot of them did".






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TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #23 
Hi Lee! Well, kudos to you then.
And let me tell you something. That wasn't even an entire episode of Neon! It was actually a sort of compilation of episodes.
All Neons are here:
https://archive.org/details/NEON-79-80
I think the episode featuring Joy Division was #6 (just the two cuts, but probably indeed aired sometime during February or March '80!).
The general cheesiness of the programme makes for hard watching indeed. But there's something strangely captivating about it as well. Each episode of Neon featured quite a few bands of the day (between Oct79-May80). Many were pretty bad, but they also had very early Cure and, as we know now, Gang of Four and even Madness and Fisher Z. The series represents what life for (Dutch) youngsters was like in those days. Even without being unable to understand the language, you can still see things that were typical for the times when Joy Division were around. The fashion, (horrible) hairstyles, Dutch amateur bands and the general mood of the streets. What I also noticed was the slight shift from boogie bluesrock bands in the early episodes to more challenging and aggressive punk/new wave/no wave in the later ones. There was also quite a bit of attention towards the squatter scene, police brutality (which could indeed be pretty nasty), anti-authority, the RAF and even the RAR (Rock Against Religion).
Even for non-Dutch watchers there's enough to see in order to be transported to a very different time with a very different "Zeitgeist". Having said that, judged by today's standards Neon is very amateurish, clumsily edited and primitive. It was probably the reason why someone decided to take his super-8 camera to a Joy Division show and share it with the rest of the world.
lee

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Reply with quote  #24 
Wasn't RAR Rock Against Racism - or is this something entirely different?
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TJ_Davidson

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Reply with quote  #25 
Yes, it was an alternate kind of RaR, the difference being it was directed against preachermen instead of skinheads.
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