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Keef

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Atmosphere
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Reply with quote  #1 
Do we know definitively what, if any, master tapes still exist or are they all currently missing presumed lost for ever?
truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #2 
...of what? All of the Joy Division ones?
Keef

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Atmosphere
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Reply with quote  #3 
Er yes.
truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #4 
There seems to be a myth about some (now apparently all!) JD masters being lost.

They have plenty of tapes, maybe not absolutely everything, but many of them.
Keef

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Reply with quote  #5 
Interesting. This is the reason that I ask the question as whenever the subject is raised or when new releases happen there is always talk about being unable to locate the masters. Clearly LWTUA existed at least up until recently so I was just curious. Are you able to substantiate how you know the others still exist?
Wallflower

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I've heard differently. I've heard they're all lost.
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fabio

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Reply with quote  #7 
Peter Hook wrote on the Haçienda book that some master tapes from UP were found on the club after closing, funnily enough used under a platform or something to level it. "Joy Division had held the fucking thing up", he added [biggrin] 
Wallflower

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Ah, okay. On another note, isn't LWTUA the only remaining multi-track, besides the 5 24-track Genetic demos which are, according to Hooky, being swapped here and there by buyers and sellers? Why haven't those been put online yet?
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truth

Komackino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabio
Peter Hook wrote on the Haçienda book that some master tapes from UP were found on the club after closing, funnily enough used under a platform or something to level it. "Joy Division had held the fucking thing up", he added [biggrin] 


He's also found UP tapes in a skip outside the Factory offices when it was being cleared out. It's unlikely both are true, so which one is it?
truth

Komackino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallflower
Ah, okay. On another note, isn't LWTUA the only remaining multi-track, besides the 5 24-track Genetic demos which are, according to Hooky, being swapped here and there by buyers and sellers? Why haven't those been put online yet?


Where has this Genetic story come from?
fabio

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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabio
Peter Hook wrote on the Haçienda book that some master tapes from UP were found on the club after closing, funnily enough used under a platform or something to level it. "Joy Division had held the fucking thing up", he added [biggrin] 


He's also found UP tapes in a skip outside the Factory offices when it was being cleared out. It's unlikely both are true, so which one is it?


Both must be true, as they are not masters, just session tapes. You can end with a lot of them after a recording.
Wallflower

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I think the Genetic tape story either came in Peter's book or some article in a magazine my English professor gave me.
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truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabio
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabio
Peter Hook wrote on the Haçienda book that some master tapes from UP were found on the club after closing, funnily enough used under a platform or something to level it. "Joy Division had held the fucking thing up", he added [biggrin] 


He's also found UP tapes in a skip outside the Factory offices when it was being cleared out. It's unlikely both are true, so which one is it?


Both must be true, as they are not masters, just session tapes. You can end with a lot of them after a recording.


Where is this info in his book? What page?
fabio

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hacienda book, end of page 304.
truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #15 
Cheers, I see it now.

I don't particularly believe it though, he also reckoned he found some in the skip at FAC251.
jamesx2

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Reply with quote  #16 
It always makes a good story though, "mastertapes rescued from skip". Didn't Jamie Oliver find some in a Manchester bank vault with gold bars and also there's the ones Julia has.

There must be more tapes than IC melodicas.
fage

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Reply with quote  #17 
I think "Closer" master still exist. Anyway I have a fragment of synth Bernard plays in "The Eternal". It's just a 30 sec but it is priceless record.
 
I don't know it's part of multitrack recording or outtake.. however it is interesting.


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fabio

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fage
I think "Closer" master still exist. Anyway I have a fragment of synth Bernard plays in "The Eternal". It's just a 30 sec but it is priceless record.
 
I don't know it's part of multitrack recording or outtake.. however it is interesting.



interesting piece Fage. Do you know its procedence? It sounds like one of these tracks from the "In the studio with Martin Hannett" cds
usernaim

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Reply with quote  #19 
I'd heard also that masters were lost.  

One oddity was that when the Rhino LP reissues were announced, audiophile reissue producer Steve Hoffman announced on his forum that he was slated to produce the project from the original Strawberry master reels.  Then he dropped out without a word.  There could be multiple reasons, but (though it's a lie), he claims to only work on original masters, so one implication is that they were lost.

It would be interesting if someone could sync up the various CD masterings, particularly the box set and the deluxe editions, to see if they originate from the same digital transfer. Every time you transfer from tape, the timing is just a little different.  Often, a CD "remaster" is based on the same digital transfer as the prior version.

However, the HDTracks versions of UP and Closer are clearly sourced from an analog tape with high frequency content beyond what's on CD.  But whether those are from backup copies of the masters--say from the copies sent to Germany, the U.S., or Japan--or from the legit first gen master tapes, can't be discerned by technical analysis.

And it certainly seems likely the Still master reels are gone given that they didn't restore the deluxe edition to the original vinyl running order, nor did they release an HDTracks version.
truth

Komackino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usernaim
I'd heard also that masters were lost.  

And it certainly seems likely the Still master reels are gone given that they didn't restore the deluxe edition to the original vinyl running order, nor did they release an HDTracks version.


It's worth pointing out that there are different 'masters' involved in the process.

If we take 'Still' as an example, the tracks that made up the album would originally be taken from various sessions and live tapes (one set of masters), then it would be assembled for the LP (next set of masters), then they would create a set of production reels, with EQing for vinyl etc done (another set of masters).

Believe me, they haven't 'lost' all variations of these.
usernaim

Gutz
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Reply with quote  #21 
Sure, but if they had all the Still masters in any form, why is there still no complete digital Still? When the LP was assembled, they made a reel to cut from. Back then they would have done their mastering moves (eq, fades, de-essing, limiting, reverb) live with one feed into the lathe and possibly one feed to another reel, so that in future, they could just run that copy straight into the lathe. If they had either reel (actually one per side) wouldn't they have released it?
truth

Komackino
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Reply with quote  #22 
By not released you mean including 'Twenty Four Hours' I'm guessing? There probably is no really good reason for that, it's something they should sort out. The digital release is usually modeled on the equivalent CD, that'll be the likely reason.

The production master is done in advance of any cut, maybe even at a different studio. That production reel is then cut flat to lathe.
fabio

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Reply with quote  #23 
24 hours was left out from Still due to time limits of the CD format. 
RiotNrrrd

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Reply with quote  #24 
On one of Julia's rescued-from-the-dumpster tapes is an UP "copy master" (as she called it), if I recall correctly
Wallflower

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Reply with quote  #25 
It'd be really nice if Julia's copy of the master would be released. I hope they get that worked out, soon, 'cuz I'm still waiting.

The real master tapes are lost, because why else would the latest remasters have to rely on pre-existing mixes? I thought that's what the 2007 remasters were based off of - I think they even had stickers that said the master tapes weren't available and so they relied on other sources. Stephen, when he remastered the tracks for some other release, was forced to EQ the old mixes. If we had the master tapes, he could've genuinely remixed them.

Analog Loyalist, being the audiophile that he is, says that the "From Joy Division to New Order" compilation has the best quality of any new release, though he says the tracks have a "tasteful bit of compression."

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"I am a believer in Joy Division. Fuckin' hallelujah!" -Rob Gretton, Control
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